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951 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 12:09 am

mace23


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

Which again boils down to the same old, a matter of opinion. All I'm saying is, nobody's opinion really matters here. (Which means. Nobody's) It isn't going to change the fact that the intended audience loves Omniverse. And I don't really care that people dislike it or anything--just don't speak like fact it is when it is not.

And yes, it is an action show, but that has 0 relevance on what tone itl adopts. The action genre is massive in its diversity. They tried something in UAF. They failed. They're doing something different with Omniverse. And it is working.
Ratings isn't really a strong measure of the artistic success of a show, it just shows the mainstream audience will buy into it, Twilight is a perfect example. Animes like Trigun failed in there origin country but do quite well in other countries. Actually movies like The Iron Giant and Serenity failed at the box office and are now classics


Saying OV is working is a matter of opinion, not fact.




Last edited by mace23 on 26th January 2013, 2:20 am; edited 3 times in total

952 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 1:11 am

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953 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 3:57 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

Which again boils down to the same old, a matter of opinion. All I'm saying is, nobody's opinion really matters here. (Which means. Nobody's) It isn't going to change the fact that the intended audience loves Omniverse. And I don't really care that people dislike it or anything--just don't speak like fact it is when it is not.

And yes, it is an action show, but that has 0 relevance on what tone itl adopts. The action genre is massive in its diversity. They tried something in UAF. They failed. They're doing something different with Omniverse. And it is working.
Ratings isn't really a strong measure of the artistic success of a show, it just shows the mainstream audience will buy into it, Twilight is a perfect example. Animes like Trigun failed in there origin country but do quite well in other countries. Actually movies like The Iron Giant and Serenity failed at the box office and are now classics


Saying OV is working is a matter of opinion, not fact.



No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact.

And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care. Box performance for movies in theaters can not be compared to tv show ratings anyway. Movies are typically a one-time deal where you go or don't and that's it. With shows an increase of ratings only shows that people watched an episode or two and liked it enough to continue, and all these people that are watching Omniverse and did not like UAF all have their own opinions. As easy as dismissing them for being "the mainstream" is, their opinions are no lesser than anybody's.


I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore.

954 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 4:35 am

mace23


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact.

And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care. Box performance for movies in theaters can not be compared to tv show ratings anyway. Movies are typically a one-time deal where you go or don't and that's it. With shows an increase of ratings only shows that people watched an episode or two and liked it enough to continue, and all these people that are watching Omniverse and did not like UAF all have their own opinions. As easy as dismissing them for being "the mainstream" is, their opinions are no lesser than anybody's.


I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore.



"No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact."

I suppose and nothing much else, it's not groundbreaking or anything so I'm not so sure there's anything to be proud of. For example The Fairly Oddparents and Johnny Test get renewed every year, not bad shows but still
nothing to write home about.

"And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care."

....maybe 10 years ago, ratings are a lot less important now,

Today audience like to wait for seasons to end so they can watch on Netflix or they have no time to follow, people can watch online. It's rare for a tv series to go past 5 seasons today, especially a cartoon.

If we're talking about more people watching, for any long running show in general there will be tons of people who fall out of the viewership and a bunch of new people who come in, which is the case with Simpsons or long running shounen action shows, nothing new in viewing patterns and most shows get viewing boosts from promo ads, so let's wait and see

955 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 5:00 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact.

And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care. Box performance for movies in theaters can not be compared to tv show ratings anyway. Movies are typically a one-time deal where you go or don't and that's it. With shows an increase of ratings only shows that people watched an episode or two and liked it enough to continue, and all these people that are watching Omniverse and did not like UAF all have their own opinions. As easy as dismissing them for being "the mainstream" is, their opinions are no lesser than anybody's.


I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore.



"No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact."

I suppose and nothing much else, it's not groundbreaking or anything so I'm not so sure there's anything to be proud of. For example The Fairly Oddparents and Johnny Test get renewed every year, not bad shows but still
nothing to write home about.

"And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care."

....maybe 10 years ago, ratings are a lot less important now,

Today audience like to wait for seasons to end so they can watch on Netflix or they have no time to follow, people can watch online. It's rare for a tv series to go past 5 seasons today, especially a cartoon.

If we're talking about more people watching, for any long running show in general there will be tons of people who fall out of the viewership and a bunch of new people who come in, which is the case with Simpsons or long running shounen action shows, nothing new in viewing patterns and most shows get viewing boosts from promo ads, so let's wait and see

I'm starting to not see what you're arguing for either.

Here's the thing: UA's ratings methodically decreased since it began. OV's have continually risen. Even if ratings are not super important now, the networks obviously care about them. With Omniverse they're getting what they want, (ratings being more impressive with it since, as you say, more and more people are watching shows online) so they're sticking with it, and it is being more successful than its predecessors.

Maybe it's not groundbreaking? What's the point of that statement anyway? Ben 10 is not groundbreaking material. UAF certainly never was. Why would anybody write home about Ultimate Alien? What exactly are you even arguing for here?

956 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 5:54 am

mace23


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:
mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact.

And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care. Box performance for movies in theaters can not be compared to tv show ratings anyway. Movies are typically a one-time deal where you go or don't and that's it. With shows an increase of ratings only shows that people watched an episode or two and liked it enough to continue, and all these people that are watching Omniverse and did not like UAF all have their own opinions. As easy as dismissing them for being "the mainstream" is, their opinions are no lesser than anybody's.


I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore.



"No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact."

I suppose and nothing much else, it's not groundbreaking or anything so I'm not so sure there's anything to be proud of. For example The Fairly Oddparents and Johnny Test get renewed every year, not bad shows but still
nothing to write home about.

"And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care."

....maybe 10 years ago, ratings are a lot less important now,

Today audience like to wait for seasons to end so they can watch on Netflix or they have no time to follow, people can watch online. It's rare for a tv series to go past 5 seasons today, especially a cartoon.

If we're talking about more people watching, for any long running show in general there will be tons of people who fall out of the viewership and a bunch of new people who come in, which is the case with Simpsons or long running shounen action shows, nothing new in viewing patterns and most shows get viewing boosts from promo ads, so let's wait and see

I'm starting to not see what you're arguing for either.

Here's the thing: UA's ratings methodically decreased since it began. OV's have continually risen. Even if ratings are not super important now, the networks obviously care about them. With Omniverse they're getting what they want, (ratings being more impressive with it since, as you say, more and more people are watching shows online) so they're sticking with it, and it is being more successful than its predecessors.

Maybe it's not groundbreaking? What's the point of that statement anyway? Ben 10 is not groundbreaking material. UAF certainly never was. Why would anybody write home about Ultimate Alien? What exactly are you even arguing for here?
Dude Chill , just trying to be analytical here sheesh Rolling Eyes I have nothing to add, I think I made my point

It's all opinion, actually I'm bugged by you throwing the fact that Omniverse is more successful ratings vaguely intended to mean, it's better, better ratings does not equal better show/ Some of my favorite tv shows were cancelled after one or two seasons. Saying success is fact doesn't do much when it comes to judging a story.

957 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 6:54 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:
mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact.

And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care. Box performance for movies in theaters can not be compared to tv show ratings anyway. Movies are typically a one-time deal where you go or don't and that's it. With shows an increase of ratings only shows that people watched an episode or two and liked it enough to continue, and all these people that are watching Omniverse and did not like UAF all have their own opinions. As easy as dismissing them for being "the mainstream" is, their opinions are no lesser than anybody's.


I don't even know what I'm arguing for anymore.



"No, it is working in that it is accomplishing its purpose and proving a success, whereas the previous series did not. This is fact."

I suppose and nothing much else, it's not groundbreaking or anything so I'm not so sure there's anything to be proud of. For example The Fairly Oddparents and Johnny Test get renewed every year, not bad shows but still
nothing to write home about.

"And although you are right in saying that ratings and the like are not signs of quality, they show that more and more people are starting to care."

....maybe 10 years ago, ratings are a lot less important now,

Today audience like to wait for seasons to end so they can watch on Netflix or they have no time to follow, people can watch online. It's rare for a tv series to go past 5 seasons today, especially a cartoon.

If we're talking about more people watching, for any long running show in general there will be tons of people who fall out of the viewership and a bunch of new people who come in, which is the case with Simpsons or long running shounen action shows, nothing new in viewing patterns and most shows get viewing boosts from promo ads, so let's wait and see

I'm starting to not see what you're arguing for either.

Here's the thing: UA's ratings methodically decreased since it began. OV's have continually risen. Even if ratings are not super important now, the networks obviously care about them. With Omniverse they're getting what they want, (ratings being more impressive with it since, as you say, more and more people are watching shows online) so they're sticking with it, and it is being more successful than its predecessors.

Maybe it's not groundbreaking? What's the point of that statement anyway? Ben 10 is not groundbreaking material. UAF certainly never was. Why would anybody write home about Ultimate Alien? What exactly are you even arguing for here?
Dude Chill , just trying to be analytical here sheesh Rolling Eyes I have nothing to add, I think I made my point

It's all opinion, actually I'm bugged by you throwing the fact that Omniverse is more successful ratings vaguely intended to mean, it's better, better ratings does not equal better show/ Some of my favorite tv shows were cancelled after one or two seasons. Saying success is fact doesn't do much when it comes to judging a story.

I'm saying that it's more successful, to signify that, it is more successful. I'm not making any claims to its quality? I'm just saying. It's doing its job better than the past series did. All I'm stating is the facts man. And. Have been a pretty long while. Since. You were the one who brought it up again in the first place? I made my point at the very beginning, hence I don't know why I'm arguing again.

Like I said at the very beginning

[It] again boils down to the same old, a matter of opinion

Also you keep comparing UAF to Beast Wars & Cowboy Bebop & The Iron Giant & Serenity, so it's kind of odd that you're accusing me of using the ratings as a vague indicator of quality (which i am not) when you're blatantly trying to victimize UAF. They made their bed and poked out their eyeballs. Don't be such a sour grape about it.

958 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 6:59 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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~MOVING ON~

I'm getting really really really really really really really really really really really bored with Omniverse's settings as of late. It's like the anti-AF, where instead of it being DARK ALL DA TIME it's DAYLIGHT FOREVER AND EVER and I just say screw that idea. Give me more variety, dang daggity dung it. I want more episodes set at night, dusk and sunset :C

I am not ashamed of saying I probably wouldn't have enjoyed B&DGtMS quite as much if it wasn't set at night. Ditto for AJftP.

rage

959 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 7:29 am

mace23


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

I'm saying that it's more successful, to signify that, it is more successful. I'm not making any claims to its quality? I'm just saying. It's doing its job better than the past series did. All I'm stating is the facts man. And. Have been a pretty long while. Since. You were the one who brought it up again in the first place? I made my point at the very beginning, hence I don't know why I'm arguing again.

Like I said at the very beginning

[It] again boils down to the same old, a matter of opinion

Also you keep comparing UAF to Beast Wars & Cowboy Bebop & The Iron Giant & Serenity, so it's kind of odd that you're accusing me of using the ratings as a vague indicator of quality (which i am not) when you're blatantly trying to victimize UAF. They made their bed and poked out their eyeballs. Don't be such a sour grape about it.

victimize???, I mentioned those examples to inform my taste, to clearly state what stuff is and isn't working FOR ME. Heck those examples almost had nothing to do with OV and was the general ideas of quality I found in AF or just my overall standard, Iron Giant and Firefly are nothing like AF, those were meant to suggest good movies I like that didn't do well as a commercial success. Cowboy Bebop and Beast Wars yes I did compare to AF, Bebop because of the serious tone and story structure and handling of character arcs, Beast Wars again because of tone and more of the "franchise "
perspective/
Zerocoil(i tihnk) was the one who mentioned The Dark Knight and Avengers so I thought it was a good direction to take the discussion, to put other peoples taste into consideration, I'm not ONLY into AF.

I already mentioned My like of Animaniacs and dislike of Adventure time but whatever, it's an opinion

960 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 26th January 2013, 2:48 pm

painlee

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961 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 30th January 2013, 3:03 am

Lukey

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So, some episodes have been Derrick J Wyatt's idea
...why does this not surprise me?

I just don't understand why a character designer is allowed that much input on story.

962 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 30th January 2013, 3:57 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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Lukey wrote:So, some episodes have been Derrick J Wyatt's idea
...why does this not surprise me?

I just don't understand why a character designer is allowed that much input on story.


Because he knows more about the original continuity of the show than most anyone else working on it. And because giving him voice worked with TFA.

963 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 3:52 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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MOVING ONNNNNNNN AND FOREVERMORE


Am I the only one that doesn't like Feedback's voice? Feedback's voice sucks. I thought when Omniverse started I would eventually get used to the lame voice and fully appreciate the amazing design, but that just...hasn't happened. Pretty much the opposite. Everytime Feedback talks I am reminded of my shattered hopes and I start to dislike him more and more. It blows.

It's much the same with Eatle and Ripjaws. Their designs are beautioufioul, but try as I do I can't look past those voices. Ripjaws is just...not great. I don't think I would mind Eatle if it wasn't because I developed the perfect headcanon voice for him before he showed up. Also, neither of them has spoken much.

tl;dr: Voice acting is killing some of my favorite aliens for me :c

964 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 3:53 am

Uncle Grandpa

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I don't mind Feedback's voice, the electrical effect is kinda cool.

Eatle's I like.

Ripjaw is meh, but I'm getting used to it.

The only voice I really dislike is Sunder's. His old voice was so much better, this one makes him sound like a generic monster.


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965 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 4:13 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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Feedback's is generic as butts. I probably wouldn't mind it if it wasn't because a better voice exists for him. Namely, Pipotron Blue's. The fact that the perfect voice exists and instead we have Yuri sounding boring makes me want to shoot an emoticon with a calculator.

Eatle's I also would probably like if I wasn't headcanoning him as David Kaye's TFA Grimlock for WEEKS before we actually got to hear his voice. Seriously, it would've been so perfect. "EETOLL DESTROYY!!" Oh my god I am crying tears of despair just thinking about the lost beauty of it.

I like Sunder's a lot. It's pitchy and whirry and I think it's unusual. It probably helps that I can't remember his old voice at all. :0

966 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 12:27 pm

verbomaniac


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http://www.ben10toys.net/profiles/blogs/ben-10-toys-with-omni-net-london-toy-fair-preview
In this video it shows Khyber with the nemetrix on. I wonder if this is showing a future event...

967 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 2:52 pm

painlee

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verbomaniac wrote:http://www.ben10toys.net/profiles/blogs/ben-10-toys-with-omni-net-london-toy-fair-preview
In this video it shows Khyber with the nemetrix on. I wonder if this is showing a future event...
doubt it ,he some time had the nemetrix on before giving it to his pet.

968 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 31st January 2013, 11:44 pm

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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verbomaniac wrote:http://www.ben10toys.net/profiles/blogs/ben-10-toys-with-omni-net-london-toy-fair-preview
In this video it shows Khyber with the nemetrix on. I wonder if this is showing a future event...

Go watch The More Things Change.

969 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 7th February 2013, 10:40 am

Helices

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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

The pretentious part of your argument is the notion that any stylistic choice to your derision (e.g. No pupils) is laughable. You can say what you want about the style, but saying "This highly successful professional's art for a comedic show isn't serious enough!" is in its entirety a flawed argument.

It is laughable though, IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS. I think if you stuck this show next to a show like Death Note or something like The Animatrix, and asked anyone which was better, they would clearly say the latter choices. What I mean by better is, casts a better illusion. Creates a fuller world with the visuals by seeming realistic and yet beautifully surreal in its elements of non realism. This style is just too much.... If you asked any true critic of animation, I doubt they would tell you this was even close to as good as your trying to make it out to be just because Derrick Wyatt is attached to it. And calling this a comedic show? I think you have missed a few points yourself. This show is (and always has been) a science fiction action adventure for kids. Yes, there is strong elements of comedy (more in some episodes than others), but Ben 10 was never intended to be entirely fun and games. Its a mix of things, comedy just being one of those things. Why would that ever be a basis for the style? The style is just not very good when it comes to the main characters mainly. Ive noticed the designs of the Nemetrix aliens can look very nice, and the animation itself is pretty fluid sometimes, but the simpler characters just lack proper designs, to me. Its like unless they have to do a big alien creature, they just kind of half ass it.

Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

I will repeat what I've said countless times: Most of Omniverse's perceived flaws (Though certainly not all. It is not, after all, perfect) stem from a misunderstanding of what show it's trying to be. No, it is not serious, melodramatic, or plot-driven. It is very much silly and comedic and irreverent. Whether this in itself is a flaw is a matter of opinion, but one cannot fault them for not making something serious when they didn't intend to make something serious in the first place. One cannot fault them either when what they're doing is obviously working. Omniverse is already going to be the longest show of the franchise with 60 episodes. Derrick has said that it will likely have more episodes, which most likely means it'll go to a full 80 at least. This shows a great deal of confidence from Cartoon Network, which can mean little else than the fact that fan reactions as a whole are extremely positive. In my opinion (and more importantly, that of the target audience) Omniverse is a far superior show to previous series. It accomplishes what it's going for and is far more consistent in its writing and animation than any series before it. It may turn off viewers like you--Nothing has universal appeal, of course--but this doesn't mean that its merits and success can be ignored.

No, of course they never promised us it to be completely dramatic and dark, but when you go from a very solid plotline like The Highbreed arc in AF, or even some of the better episodes from UA (like "Solitary Alignment"), I would expect this show to carry on with that type of maturity. Instead, Omniverse is simply is a degeneration back to all the things the Ben 10 series had grown out of. Instead of growing with the audience, they simply took a step back. Now how is that consistent at all? Your only looking at Omniverse because you want to ignore the previous continuity, that's not how it works. There was a lot of stuff that happened before this show, and now they're basically telling us it was all worthless bullshit? That's pretty much a huge cop out on Derrick and Cartoon Networks part. They want more money out of toys and all that shit, thats really why they even redesigned everything. Thats what this comes down to.

Lodestar's Advocate wrote:

Then again, I feel like most of the complaints against Omniverse "ruining Ben 10" stem from some idea that there was something to ruin in the first place? I loved the OS (still do for the most part) and the first part of Alien Force. But that was when I was in elementary school and I could make no distinctions between what was quality work and not. AF and UA did nothing for me afterwards. They were boring and bland and fell on their faces most of the time. Anything--pretty much literally anything--would be better. And Omniverse is not "just anything." It is a series with Derrick freaking Wyatt as an art director, which in itself makes it a watch-worthy enough show. Add to that solid voice acting (props to Ben's aliens no longer being one person and especially to Bumper Robinson), the fact that after over 5 years long-forgotten aliens like Grey Matter, Wildvine, Ditto, Eye Guy, Articguana and the Benmonsters are returning, a little humor and completely irreverent storylines, (Not to mention that the big bad is a reference to my favorite anime) and well....you have a loyal watcher in me.

You call me pretentious and yet you now act as if your opinion is agreed upon in unison by all Ben 10 fans when you say my opinions "stem from the idea that there was something to ruin in the first place"? Yes, there was something to ruin. The first 26 episodes Ben 10: Alien Force were pretty much the best thing that ever happened to the franchise. So many awesome episodes in those two seasons alone which made the previous series look like Bob The Builder. Not to say it didn't have weak points, but pretty much all of them were well thought out and had a mature, building atmosphere of tension which moved the story along nicely. The designs were all pretty good, (still not the best, better than Omniverse though). This one also featured Ben with his best Omnitrix, the original, just recalibrated, and pretty cool new aliens (despite pretty simple designs). It may be boring to you, but your kind of missing the point if you think that. Their intended to be slightly cerebral and have a sarcasm to them, not fastpaced and full of lame puns and kiddish humor like Omniverse which with that kind of writing doesn't come across very professional. Yes, yes, i know, to you its supposed to be that way intentionally, but just because your being funny doesn't mean you have to seem *stupid*. AF was smart and funny, something the OS always failed at.

Also, Ben's aliens being voiced by one guy was done on purpose to show the fact that it is always Ben, with his own unique voice always slightly coming through in the aliens. It makes more sense like that, why have so many different people anyways? Doesn't just cost more for the network?

And you say "derrick freaking wyatt" as if hes even really significant or adds anything new to the spectrum of animation history. No. Hes done what so many have done before him, draw undetailed characters with somewhat unrealistic proportions and attempt to pass it off as art that he should be proud of having been known for producing, when this is the 21st century and animation like that should be kind of a relic by now. He animated Scooby Doo. Yay. That takes so much talent. Ben 10 isn't even close to the same level as a show like that, as shown by AF or even close examination of the core concept of Ben 10 which is inherently complex (but dumbed down tonally for kids), which you purposely choose to ignore, based on your own opinions and bias.

970 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 7th February 2013, 4:42 pm

mace23


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Helices wrote:
You call me pretentious and yet you now act as if your opinion is agreed upon in unison by all Ben 10 fans when you say my opinions "stem from the idea that there was something to ruin in the first place"?
Pretty much and the fact that you try to change the subject even when someone had an honest opinion and you wrote there opinions off as not mattering by saying no one's opinions matter but then you go off changing the subject to what you want all the time

Helices wrote:
And you say "derrick freaking wyatt" as if hes even really significant or adds anything new to the spectrum of animation history. No. Hes done what so many have done before him, draw undetailed characters with somewhat unrealistic proportions and attempt to pass it off as art that he should be proud of having been known for producing, when this is the 21st century and animation like that should be kind of a relic by now. He animated Scooby Doo. Yay. That takes so much talent. Ben 10 isn't even close to the same level as a show like that, as shown by AF or even close examination of the core concept of Ben 10 which is inherently complex (but dumbed down tonally for kids), which you purposely choose to ignore, based on your own opinions and bias.

I love Scooby Doo but I thought Mysteries Inc was an insult to me. It was my least favorite entry and I didn't even know who DJW was at the time. It brought the subtle aspects of the series into cliche territory that the series was able to avoid for 2 decades, thankful season 2 seemed to have improved. The funny thing is most of the Mysteries Inc designs were humanoid and didn't look nearly as strange as what we've been getting with OV.

I don't think my problem is lack of detail, it's the lack of sense of volume, forced looking drawings, cluttered backgrounds, uneconomic storytelling, and unfunny jokes painted in pastel colors and cleaned to look professional, it looks messy to me.

971 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 7th February 2013, 7:56 pm

datdude

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Oh please people stop acting like anyone that doesn't like this show is a bully or that DJW isn't off putting on forumspring.

It is a damn FACT that everyone has the right to make up their own minds about this show, and a lot about what people loved about af and ua changed for ov they have a right to not like those changes.

Grow the hell up stop feeding the trolls they dont want to debate you they only want to be the center of attention.

972 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 8th February 2013, 1:49 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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It is laughable though, IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS. I think if you stuck this show next to a show like Death Note or something like The Animatrix, and asked anyone which was better, they would clearly say the latter choices. What I mean by better is, casts a better illusion. Creates a fuller world with the visuals by seeming realistic and yet beautifully surreal in its elements of non realism. This style is just too much.... If you asked any true critic of animation, I doubt they would tell you this was even close to as good as your trying to make it out to be just because Derrick Wyatt is attached to it. And calling this a comedic show? I think you have missed a few points yourself. This show is (and always has been) a science fiction action adventure for kids. Yes, there is strong elements of comedy (more in some episodes than others), but Ben 10 was never intended to be entirely fun and games. Its a mix of things, comedy just being one of those things. Why would that ever be a basis for the style? The style is just not very good when it comes to the main characters mainly. Ive noticed the designs of the Nemetrix aliens can look very nice, and the animation itself is pretty fluid sometimes, but the simpler characters just lack proper designs, to me. Its like unless they have to do a big alien creature, they just kind of half ass it.

This is just the same argument though. You don't like it because you don't like it.
The thing is, this doesn't look like any more like this than this. You are making comparisons that really don't hold up--the style that Obata used in Death Note was tailored to fit the dark, brooding mood and the highly sophisticated story that that manga series told. Omniverse also uses a style tailored to the tone it uses--one that is not dark or brooding or sophisticated. It is the opposite. Also, the truth is, if you asked any critics of animation, they would tell you that Omniverse is a great, fluid cartoon, good by today's standards, and certainly better than any of the three series before it--when it comes to the animation, at least. (Don't mix up animation and design. They are not the same thing). If you compared any of the previous series to Death Note or the Animatrix, they would still choose the latter works. Because UAF was not revolutionary, and neither is Omniverse. They are just cartoons. And, if you asked any "real critic" of design, well...why should anybody care if a critic says something is drawn well or not? Art is a very subjective matter. What some people may find appealing may be seen by others as bland, or vice versa. There is nothing to quantify the quality of any art style, and definitely not how realistic it is. I maintain that calling OV's style laughable because you don't like it is still much.

Also, calling Ben 10 a science fiction show is a bit lenient--the scientific angle to Ben 10 is almost nonexistent. The only thing that would qualify it as science fiction is the fact that it features alien superheroes, and if that is all it took then every Superman story is a science fiction one. At least from how I see it, is is predominantly an adventure story, which was most evident in the original series, as it followed a simple villain of the week format. It's true, however, that Ben 10 isn't meant to be only one thing. Which is why it is not. But Omniverse is still a comedic series, in the sense that it's painted on a large backdrop of irreverence. The element of drama or severity is still there, just not as prominent, much like how UAF decided to go mostly for drama with occasional attempts at humor. And this still matters in regard to the style, because the story--which other people are complicit in coming up with--had to be matched by a fitting art style. And they hired Wyatt because his worked for the series they had in mind.

Personally, I always felt UAF was much more complicit in "half-assing" designs. It was definitely not trying very hard. Even/Especially when large monsters were concerned. But that's just me.

No, of course they never promised us it to be completely dramatic and dark, but when you go from a very solid plotline like The Highbreed arc in AF, or even some of the better episodes from UA (like "Solitary Alignment"), I would expect this show to carry on with that type of maturity. Instead, Omniverse is simply is a degeneration back to all the things the Ben 10 series had grown out of. Instead of growing with the audience, they simply took a step back. Now how is that consistent at all? Your only looking at Omniverse because you want to ignore the previous continuity, that's not how it works. There was a lot of stuff that happened before this show, and now they're basically telling us it was all worthless bullshit? That's pretty much a huge cop out on Derrick and Cartoon Networks part. They want more money out of toys and all that shit, thats really why they even redesigned everything. Thats what this comes down to.

That's silly though. Of course going from a solid, good story like that of the Highbreeds to Omniverse would be stupid, and it would be unfathomable for a couple of reasons (none having anything to do with the merits of the latter). The THING then is that that's not what happened. The Highbreed arc was the high of UAF, which was the problem, because it happened within the first fifth of it. What was there to see after that? Sure, there were some gems--Con of Rath and Prisoner #775 is Missing are still some of my favorite episodes--but by and large, it was highly inconsequential. And the thing also is, that there wasn't a lot of an audience to grow with. UA was losing viewers (as I already said). Maybe it "grew" too fast. Maybe people just didn't like it. It's also a bit iffy to say that it had grown out of anything--what Alien Force did was take some characters, look at the very bare facts about them (namely, their powers and names), and create completely new characters with their names and powers, and excuse those changes with "they just grew up." We never saw the characters and the story grow with them, they just did. So yes, Omniverse is a step back in regards to their characterization--back to something closer to what they originally were and the stories they used to engage in. It's not consistent with the series, true--but it's consistent in respect to the fact that it's doing something new with the franchise, relying on the past series only liberally. There were a lot of things that happened in the series before Alien Force, and what that series did was also say that a lot of those things didn't matter. Omniverse, on the other hand, has not denied anything nearly to the degree that UAF did. I'm not saying that it isn't a valid complaint you have, but it's the exact same complaint that critics of UAF had at the beginning. Things change, whether we like it or not. It's just a matter of not getting caught up with how much we dislike change.

Also, just a thing: Ben 10 only still exists because of the merchandise. Do they want to make more money? Yes. Who doesn't want to make money? Without the monetary support that the toy sales gave Ben 10, you better believe that AF and UA wouldn't exist. (And neither would OV, of course.) Besides, they have proved time and again that they don't need redesigns to keep making toys. That is pretty much the opposite of what is true.


You call me pretentious and yet you now act as if your opinion is agreed upon in unison by all Ben 10 fans when you say my opinions "stem from the idea that there was something to ruin in the first place"? Yes, there was something to ruin. The first 26 episodes Ben 10: Alien Force were pretty much the best thing that ever happened to the franchise. So many awesome episodes in those two seasons alone which made the previous series look like Bob The Builder. Not to say it didn't have weak points, but pretty much all of them were well thought out and had a mature, building atmosphere of tension which moved the story along nicely. The designs were all pretty good, (still not the best, better than Omniverse though). This one also featured Ben with his best Omnitrix, the original, just recalibrated, and pretty cool new aliens (despite pretty simple designs). It may be boring to you, but your kind of missing the point if you think that. Their intended to be slightly cerebral and have a sarcasm to them, not fastpaced and full of lame puns and kiddish humor like Omniverse which with that kind of writing doesn't come across very professional. Yes, yes, i know, to you its supposed to be that way intentionally, but just because your being funny doesn't mean you have to seem *stupid*. AF was smart and funny, something the OS always failed at.

It's true. I kind of went on a tangent here, so, sorry.
I'm not going to repeat what I said before, though--seasons 1 and 2 of Alien Force were seasons 1 and 2 of Alien Force. They were hardly representative of what came after, and they don't justify the weaker storylines that came after it. I certainly don't share your zeal for that arc.

I don't really think Omniverse is as stupid as you make it out to be. It is not Ultimate Spiderman, after all.

Quite honestly, it all comes down to opinion once again. I never said that was not the case. In fact, I've said the opposite. So many times. Like these!
Nothing has universal appeal
It's a matter of opinion

I have never said it is perfect. In fact!
It is not, after all, perfect

All I've ever said is, don't act like an incorruptible objective reviewer when the truth is that we all have our own biases and opinions. Just. Don't expect to not have your views opposed by somebody with a different opinion. We don't even have to be uncivil about. Discussing things is fun.


Also, Ben's aliens being voiced by one guy was done on purpose to show the fact that it is always Ben, with his own unique voice always slightly coming through in the aliens. It makes more sense like that, why have so many different people anyways? Doesn't just cost more for the network?

I think that's a pretty weak excuse. It's okay in theory, but you can't have one guy do a forty voices and expect them to stay distinct and appealing. Frankly, it made too many of the aliens have similar voices, and I can't imagine it was easy on Dee. In fact, we know that doing Humungousaur's voice all the time was uncomfortable to him. Having more voice actors for the aliens doesn't hurt the network's pocket at all, because most of these other voice actors have other roles besides those that they already normally do. (e.g. Paul Eiding is Blukic and Max, Eric Bauza is Driba, Yuri is Ben, Dee is Psyphon, David Kaye is Khyber, Rob Paulsen is Patteliday, Corey Burton is Malware and Azmuth, etc) there's really no drawbacks to it.

Oh please people stop acting like anyone that doesn't like this show is a bully or that DJW isn't off putting on forumspring.

It is a damn FACT that everyone has the right to make up their own minds about this show, and a lot about what people loved about af and ua changed for ov they have a right to not like those changes.

Grow the hell up stop feeding the trolls they dont want to debate you they only want to be the center of attention.

Datdude, please, please, please stop butting into my conversations just to say I'm a troll. I'm just a dude that is bored and interested in talking about cartoons. Do not reply if you have no interest in the discussion. I have never said that people don't have the right to their opinions. As I already noted, I have done just that many times. It doesn't mean that we can't talk about those opinions, however.

973 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 8th February 2013, 2:06 am

mace23


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Plumber

974 Re: Ben 10:Omniverse chatter :) on 8th February 2013, 2:17 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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Magister
Magister
mace23 wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:





Personally, I always felt UAF was much more complicit in "half-assing" designs. It was definitely not trying very hard. Even/Especially when large monsters were concerned. But that's just me.

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Sorry?

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