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Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes

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1 Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 23rd July 2016, 2:48 pm

Gordo_Hareda


Human
Human
It's been contested, including recently on the reboot thread, as to whether or not Man of Action would have ever thought to redeem Kevin or if he was to stay Ben's enemy.

Similarly, a debate that has been brought up constantly is if the morally shifting Charmcaster in later shows was on course to redemption as well or not.

Welp, I got in contact with Duncan Rouleau on Facebook and he set the record straight:



So no, Kevin and Charmcaster were never to remain villains.  They were created as rivals/foils to Ben and Gwen who would gradually become more anti-heroic, and yes, Charmcaster would have joined Gwen's side at Friedkin University had that spin-off been made.  

Now, I'm sure Man of Action would have done things differently (neither of them would "join the team" full-on like Kevin in UAF and Charm in the proposed Gwen spin-off, and Kevin in particular would be radically different as an anti-hero, keeping his old powers and personality.  In fact, he's clearly a deliberate homage to Venom from Spider-Man: psychopathic evil counterpart to the hero who has the same powers but looks like a big monster and blames the hero for ruining his life rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Venom's style of anti-heroism would have been Kevin's style too.)  But nevertheless, it's good to know that both characters were following the development path intended for them, even if you don't necessarily agree with the way that path was written over the course of the shows.

I, for one, am looking even more forward to inevitably seeing them in the reboot now. Smile

2 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 17th August 2016, 8:23 pm

datdude

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Plumber
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Gordo_Hareda wrote:It's been contested, including recently on the reboot thread, as to whether or not Man of Action would have ever thought to redeem Kevin or if he was to stay Ben's enemy.

Similarly, a debate that has been brought up constantly is if the morally shifting Charmcaster in later shows was on course to redemption as well or not.

Welp, I got in contact with Duncan Rouleau on Facebook and he set the record straight:



So no, Kevin and Charmcaster were never to remain villains.  They were created as rivals/foils to Ben and Gwen who would gradually become more anti-heroic, and yes, Charmcaster would have joined Gwen's side at Friedkin University had that spin-off been made.  

Now, I'm sure Man of Action would have done things differently (neither of them would "join the team" full-on like Kevin in UAF and Charm in the proposed Gwen spin-off, and Kevin in particular would be radically different as an anti-hero, keeping his old powers and personality.  In fact, he's clearly a deliberate homage to Venom from Spider-Man: psychopathic evil counterpart to the hero who has the same powers but looks like a big monster and blames the hero for ruining his life rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Venom's style of anti-heroism would have been Kevin's style too.)  But nevertheless, it's good to know that both characters were following the development path intended for them, even if you don't necessarily agree with the way that path was written over the course of the shows.

I, for one, am looking even more forward to inevitably seeing them in the reboot now. Smile

Wow Someone should have told Derrick J Wyatt this when he was working on Omniverse.

3 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 17th August 2016, 9:36 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
I also covered my thoughts on this as well on the Ben 10 Club website.

http://ben10club.org/topic/160/kevin-and-charmcaster-s-actual-character-development

4 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 18th August 2016, 4:44 pm

Superfanbg


Human
Human
Gordo_Hareda wrote:It's been contested, including recently on the reboot thread, as to whether or not Man of Action would have ever thought to redeem Kevin or if he was to stay Ben's enemy.

Similarly, a debate that has been brought up constantly is if the morally shifting Charmcaster in later shows was on course to redemption as well or not.

Welp, I got in contact with Duncan Rouleau on Facebook and he set the record straight:



So no, Kevin and Charmcaster were never to remain villains.  They were created as rivals/foils to Ben and Gwen who would gradually become more anti-heroic, and yes, Charmcaster would have joined Gwen's side at Friedkin University had that spin-off been made.  

Now, I'm sure Man of Action would have done things differently (neither of them would "join the team" full-on like Kevin in UAF and Charm in the proposed Gwen spin-off, and Kevin in particular would be radically different as an anti-hero, keeping his old powers and personality.  In fact, he's clearly a deliberate homage to Venom from Spider-Man: psychopathic evil counterpart to the hero who has the same powers but looks like a big monster and blames the hero for ruining his life rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Venom's style of anti-heroism would have been Kevin's style too.)  But nevertheless, it's good to know that both characters were following the development path intended for them, even if you don't necessarily agree with the way that path was written over the course of the shows.

I, for one, am looking even more forward to inevitably seeing them in the reboot now. Smile
Charmcaster is an excellent rival to Gwen and in the future, They Could Be good friends.
Kevin on the other hand, is a sociopath and wants to kill everyone, just to molest Ben

5 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 18th August 2016, 4:48 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
I agree. Like I covered on the Ben 10 Club page that I made and linked here, I can definitely see Charmcaster taking on a more heroic role but not Kevin. The way that Kevin is as a character just doesn't fit for a hero.

6 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 18th August 2016, 7:00 pm

Gordo_Hareda


Human
Human
Wow Someone should have told Derrick J Wyatt this when he was working on Omniverse.

I think Matt Wayne and Charlotte Fullerton knew, which is why they did their best to neuter Wyatt's "villain Charmcaster" arc by having her barely do anything villainous other than fight the heroes over stuff, and set her up to go full anti-hero with Gwen at the college in that proposed spin-off.

Wyatt probably would have preferred Kevin as a villain again too, but his hands were completely tied on that one.

just to molest Ben

....Um, WHAT!? Shocked

I can definitely see Charmcaster taking on a more heroic role but not Kevin. The way that Kevin is as a character just doesn't fit for a hero.

ANTI-hero, not hero, and there are different degrees of anti-hero.  As I said in my first post, MoA clearly took inspiration from Venom in Kevin's character, and Kevin as an anti-hero would be the same as Venom as an anti-hero: still psychotic, still selfish, and still willing to flip on a dime when confronted by his nemesis. Being an anti-hero doesn't automatically make one a good person, just someone who can do good things out of their own personal interest. THAT kind of anti-hero role does fit Kevin well.

7 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 18th August 2016, 7:27 pm

The Omni Triforcer

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Omnitrix Wielder
Omnitrix Wielder
Superfanbg wrote:
Gordo_Hareda wrote:It's been contested, including recently on the reboot thread, as to whether or not Man of Action would have ever thought to redeem Kevin or if he was to stay Ben's enemy.

Similarly, a debate that has been brought up constantly is if the morally shifting Charmcaster in later shows was on course to redemption as well or not.

Welp, I got in contact with Duncan Rouleau on Facebook and he set the record straight:



So no, Kevin and Charmcaster were never to remain villains.  They were created as rivals/foils to Ben and Gwen who would gradually become more anti-heroic, and yes, Charmcaster would have joined Gwen's side at Friedkin University had that spin-off been made.  

Now, I'm sure Man of Action would have done things differently (neither of them would "join the team" full-on like Kevin in UAF and Charm in the proposed Gwen spin-off, and Kevin in particular would be radically different as an anti-hero, keeping his old powers and personality.  In fact, he's clearly a deliberate homage to Venom from Spider-Man: psychopathic evil counterpart to the hero who has the same powers but looks like a big monster and blames the hero for ruining his life rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Venom's style of anti-heroism would have been Kevin's style too.)  But nevertheless, it's good to know that both characters were following the development path intended for them, even if you don't necessarily agree with the way that path was written over the course of the shows.

I, for one, am looking even more forward to inevitably seeing them in the reboot now. Smile
Charmcaster is an excellent rival to Gwen and in the future, They Could Be good friends.
Kevin on the other hand, is a sociopath and wants to kill everyone, just to molest Ben
Woah dude no need to bring up that kinda stuff since its never implied that he ever wanted to do that.


_________________


8 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 2:29 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
Gordo_Hareda: "ANTI-hero, not hero, and there are different degrees of anti-hero.  As I said in my first post, MoA clearly took inspiration from Venom in Kevin's character, and Kevin as an anti-hero would be the same as Venom as an anti-hero: still psychotic, still selfish, and still willing to flip on a dime when confronted by his nemesis. Being an anti-hero doesn't automatically make one a good person, just someone who can do good things out of their own personal interest. THAT kind of anti-hero role does fit Kevin well."



Not even as an anti-hero does it suit Kevin as a character well and in the link to the Ben 10 Club page that I made, I explained why. Kevin is a thug that only cares more about himself and that has a very strong hatred and vendetta towards Ben. However, I did also explain how Kevin as an anti-hero could benefit the story in which how Kevin could end up being an ally to Ben and Gwen only to later on end up going back to his old ways. I also explained how the result of this could lead to a tragic outcome that would act as the very breaking point at which Ben makes his transition into Ben 10,000. In my opinion, Kevin as an anti-hero could work best if the series goes down that very path that I mentioned where Kevin and his actions end up being the reason why Ben made that transition into Ben 10,000. So yeah, it can work. Kevin as an anti-hero could work for a short period of time but not in the long run.

9 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 3:05 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
Also, wow, so much inspiration from the Spider-Man series that Ben 10 has.

10 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 3:38 pm

The Omni Triforcer

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Omnitrix Wielder
Omnitrix Wielder
I thought it was explained it omniverse that Servantis messing with Kevins memories and making him believe that his father was a plumber was the reason he wanted to become a hero and that servantis wanted him to get close to Ben which explains the sudden change of his personality.


_________________


11 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 3:45 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
This is in regards to what Man of Action intended. Unless the whole subplot involving Servantis and the Rooters was something that Man of Action intended to cover in Ben 10, I'd rather not count that as being a factor that influenced Kevin's motivations and characteristics.

12 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 4:31 pm

Superfanbg


Human
Human
The Omni Triforcer wrote:
Superfanbg wrote:
Gordo_Hareda wrote:It's been contested, including recently on the reboot thread, as to whether or not Man of Action would have ever thought to redeem Kevin or if he was to stay Ben's enemy.

Similarly, a debate that has been brought up constantly is if the morally shifting Charmcaster in later shows was on course to redemption as well or not.

Welp, I got in contact with Duncan Rouleau on Facebook and he set the record straight:



So no, Kevin and Charmcaster were never to remain villains.  They were created as rivals/foils to Ben and Gwen who would gradually become more anti-heroic, and yes, Charmcaster would have joined Gwen's side at Friedkin University had that spin-off been made.  

Now, I'm sure Man of Action would have done things differently (neither of them would "join the team" full-on like Kevin in UAF and Charm in the proposed Gwen spin-off, and Kevin in particular would be radically different as an anti-hero, keeping his old powers and personality.  In fact, he's clearly a deliberate homage to Venom from Spider-Man: psychopathic evil counterpart to the hero who has the same powers but looks like a big monster and blames the hero for ruining his life rather than take responsibility for his own actions. Venom's style of anti-heroism would have been Kevin's style too.)  But nevertheless, it's good to know that both characters were following the development path intended for them, even if you don't necessarily agree with the way that path was written over the course of the shows.

I, for one, am looking even more forward to inevitably seeing them in the reboot now. Smile
Charmcaster is an excellent rival to Gwen and in the future, They Could Be good friends.
Kevin on the other hand, is a sociopath and wants to kill everyone, just to molest Ben
Woah dude no need to bring up that kinda stuff since its never implied that he ever wanted to do that.
Well we can not deny that Kevin is the bad guy (to the extreme).

13 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 5:06 pm

Superfanbg


Human
Human
The Omni Triforcer wrote:I thought it was explained it omniverse that Servantis messing with Kevins memories and making him believe that his father was a plumber was the reason he wanted to become a hero and that servantis wanted him to get close to Ben which explains the sudden change of his personality.
Kevin has never been manipulated by anyone, he always did things at your convenience, not caring if it hurt others with their selfish actions. In addition to Servantis it was only an invention more Omniverse, for that people thought he was a good boy who wanted to save the universe.

14 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 5:13 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
Superfanbg wrote:
The Omni Triforcer wrote:I thought it was explained it omniverse that Servantis messing with Kevins memories and making him believe that his father was a plumber was the reason he wanted to become a hero and that servantis wanted him to get close to Ben which explains the sudden change of his personality.
Kevin has never been manipulated by anyone, he always did things at your convenience, not caring if it hurt others with their selfish actions. In addition to Servantis it was only an invention more Omniverse, for that people thought he was a good boy who wanted to save the universe.

Yeah, that too about Kevin as well.

15 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 5:19 pm

Superfanbg


Human
Human
I see Charmcaster high chance of being a good girl, in the near future and possibly as master or apprentice Gwen. Very Happy

16 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 19th August 2016, 5:38 pm

Superfanbg


Human
Human
Tactical Ochoa wrote:
Superfanbg wrote:
The Omni Triforcer wrote:I thought it was explained it omniverse that Servantis messing with Kevins memories and making him believe that his father was a plumber was the reason he wanted to become a hero and that servantis wanted him to get close to Ben which explains the sudden change of his personality.
Kevin has never been manipulated by anyone, he always did things at your convenience, not caring if it hurt others with their selfish actions. In addition to Servantis it was only an invention more Omniverse, for that people thought he was a good boy who wanted to save the universe.

Yeah, that too about Kevin as well.
I suppose

17 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 27th August 2016, 5:31 pm

Gordo_Hareda


Human
Human
So yeah, it can work. Kevin as an anti-hero could work for a short period of time but not in the long run.

That's what I think the intent would be: have him be an anti-hero for some time, then return to villainy.  He then might have been an anti-hero again later, but back to being evil afterward, and so on and so on.  Kevin is unstable, and so (like Venon) his anti-hero stints are always going to be temporary.

It may have been a similar case with Charmcaster, though replacing "unstable" with "selfish".  If going back to villainy would get her something she wanted, she'd do it.

Unless the whole subplot involving Servantis and the Rooters was something that Man of Action intended to cover in Ben 10, I'd rather not count that as being a factor that influenced Kevin's motivations and characteristics.

No, they had no influence on most if not all routes the sequels took. The Rooters were an invention of Derrick Wyatt, because he wanted to make Kevin a human mutant again and explain away plot holes and inconsistencies that his UAF developments created.

18 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 27th August 2016, 5:37 pm

Tactical Ochoa


Plumber
Plumber
That really depends though with Charmcaster. In regards to the Original Series, Charmcaster felt a lot like a victim corrupted by her abusive and power-hungry uncle. I gave the Batman: The Killing Joke analogy of the Joker saying how one bad day can make the sanest person go insane and how the opposite of that could happen as well. To me at least, having at least one good day could be enough for Charmcaster to put her villainous past behind and turn her life around for the better. That having some good moments of life can be enough to trigger her transition into a more heroic character.

19 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 27th August 2016, 6:55 pm

AleSir19

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Kevin was created like a mean anti-hero, but he could be rewritten really easily into a tragic character. That is exactly what Dwayne McDuffie, Charlotte Fullerton and Matt Wayne did, because Kevin Levin works
perfectly like a tragic anti-hero, who isnt pure evil but only is a kid who was really angry with Ben and the world, becuse this stupid kid had a family who love him and a powerful watch with all the power in the world, while he was alone, in New York City, without any power or control over his life.

That is the seed of Kevin, that is what made him become a monster, but in the same way, it is really interesting to take that concept to another more mature level and play with it. Make Ben and Gwen some kind of foster family for Kevin was a perfect way to redeem how annoying and rude was Ben when he was 10 years old and also a way to show how much Ben has grown over the years, wanting to help Kevin to change and even becoming his best friend.

Make Gwen the girlfriend of Kevin was the natural and organic way to go.

The problem is that Dwayne McDuffie executed in an awful way his concept of where to take Ben, Gwen and Kevin relationship next, McDuffie didnt spend or give enough time to the relationship of the characters to grow and feel natural and organic, it feel forced like hell. Because we didnt know how Kevin changed from the Unstable Monster he was to the stable and cold guy we knew in AF.

About Charmcaster is the same thing, Charmcaster was an evil person, who likes to make people suffer, she enjoys suffering and wants to be in control, what Omniverse did with Charmcaster was perfect in the sense of his motivation, she all his life was cheated, used and manipulated by this awful mens, and his revenge was perfect.

For me Charmcaster is hurt and alone, she is manipulated by every men she gets along and used, that is his main motivation.

Kevin from the other side find people who help him.

20 Re: Kevin & Charmcaster = Anti-Heroes on 22nd September 2016, 9:33 pm

Gordo_Hareda


Human
Human
Tactical Ochoa wrote:To me at least, having at least one good day could be enough for Charmcaster to put her villainous past behind and turn her life around for the better. That having some good moments of life can be enough to trigger her transition into a more heroic character.

Sure, but I think with Charmcaster there would be limits to how heroic she could become.  One of the things that makes Charmcaster contrast with Gwen is that despite being as smart and ambitious as Gwen, she has absolutely no regards for any rules.  Even as a hero, she'd be willing to cut corners and do less-than-honorable things for the cause of good that someone like Gwen wouldn't.  Which is good, because otherwise she'd be just a Gwen clone.  The "anti" in anti-hero has to stand for something.

Also, AleSir91, I have no idea what you're trying to even say here. Neutral

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