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1 Future of Charmcaster Arc on 18th July 2012, 10:49 pm

kirby145


So I think one of the best things to come out of Ben 10: AF/UA was the extension of the original Ben 10 character Charmcaster. In the original Ben 10 she was just a small character who wasn't really important, and was even overshadowed by Hex (Who has so far not had much character development, other than the fact he raised CC).

But in Alien Force she returns to a more important role in the series. She is shown to be capable of evolving and changing throughout the series. At one point she kills Gwen, but at another she is working with Gwen in the Ledger Domain incident. I wasn't really happy with how she turned against the team, but it was understandable. (Edit: 2nd time she kills Gwen).

So far her origin story is pretty much revealed, although I doubt she is going to just "give up" on her life-long goal. Sure she dominated LD for amusement, but I think the goal is still going to stay with her (and it may be twisted).
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There is room for some serious involvement of Charmcaster further in the story.

Her involvement basically set the rules for "magic" type heroes in the Ben 10 universe. It's fairly similar to magic types in the Justice League series, which I found to be pretty well done (but also blatantly unbalanced). As you will find in the majority of JL episodes (and of course Young Justice) any time a magic type hero is involved, you need to get another magic type to counter it. If it's not magic vs magic, you generally have to greatly outnumber and outsmart the magic user. Not to mention any OG (Original Gangster) magic users are even more broken. Think godlike...

Just as magic type heroes were severely strong in JL, it seems the same in Ben 10. As of right now Gwen is regarded as the "most dangerous member" of the team, and CC is basically her counterpart ruling the LD. The difference being that Gwen is half alien (and CC is... human? It's not clear).

What do you guys think? If not CC, who do you want to see more of in Omniverse?

2 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 19th July 2012, 2:43 am

Zero Degrees

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Personally, I very much hated Charmcaster in UA. She was kind of an idiot and was barely developed IMO but she was fine in OS and AF. I hope they can do her justice if she appears again.

I've always wanted to see a Gwen-Anodite arc (that involves Hex or CC). There've been a lot of episodes about Gwen but they missed a pretty big opportunity to have a story arc about the consequences, the effects, the burdens, etc. of being an Anodite or half-alien. Gwen, as a character, was developed fine but I felt they ignored that part of her somehow.



Last edited by Zero Degrees on 19th July 2012, 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total

3 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 19th July 2012, 6:47 am

CBobb1234

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I don't think we are going to see much of her in omniverse, especially not in the first season anyway. This season is mainly focused on Khyber.

4 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 19th July 2012, 9:05 am

First-Psykon

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kirby145 wrote:So I think one of the best things to come out of Ben 10: AF/UA was the extension of the original Ben 10 character Charmcaster. In the original Ben 10 she was just a small character who wasn't really important, and was even overshadowed by Hex (Who has so far not had much character development, other than the fact he raised CC).

But in Alien Force she returns to a more important role in the series. She is shown to be capable of evolving and changing throughout the series. At one point she kills Gwen, but at another she is working with Gwen in the Ledger Domain incident. I wasn't really happy with how she turned against the team, but it was understandable. (Edit: 2nd time she kills Gwen).

So far her origin story is pretty much revealed, although I doubt she is going to just "give up" on her life-long goal. Sure she dominated LD for amusement, but I think the goal is still going to stay with her (and it may be twisted).
---
There is room for some serious involvement of Charmcaster further in the story.

Her involvement basically set the rules for "magic" type heroes in the Ben 10 universe. It's fairly similar to magic types in the Justice League series, which I found to be pretty well done (but also blatantly unbalanced). As you will find in the majority of JL episodes (and of course Young Justice) any time a magic type hero is involved, you need to get another magic type to counter it. If it's not magic vs magic, you generally have to greatly outnumber and outsmart the magic user. Not to mention any OG (Original Gangster) magic users are even more broken. Think godlike...

Just as magic type heroes were severely strong in JL, it seems the same in Ben 10. As of right now Gwen is regarded as the "most dangerous member" of the team, and CC is basically her counterpart ruling the LD. The difference being that Gwen is half alien (and CC is... human? It's not clear).

What do you guys think? If not CC, who do you want to see more of in Omniverse?
Well, Gwen, Kevin, Paradox, a lot more new aliens, some of the OS aliens which showed themselves only once or twice, and Charmcaster as well.

5 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 13th August 2012, 6:23 pm

FutureFighter


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Zero Degrees wrote:Personally, I very much hated Charmcaster in UA. She was kind of an idiot and was barely developed IMO but she was fine in OS and AF. I hope they can do her justice if she appears again.

Exactly. Charmcaster was awesome in OS and her first AF episode (not so much the second, but that was an alternate-universe Charmy so it's excusable). UA destroyed her character and ruined her further development, even when it set it up so well with "Where The Magic Happens". It's not that she "barely developed", it's that her development was screwed over; she took a huge step forward and then 600,000 steps back.

The number-one item on my Omniverse wish-list is that Charmcaster's story is continued, corrected, and restored, giving her dignity back.

kirby145 wrote:In the original Ben 10 she was just a small character who wasn't really important, and was even overshadowed by Hex (Who has so far not had much character development, other than the fact he raised CC.)

Er, many (me included) find it the opposite: CC overshadowed Hex. She was a much more interesting, fleshed out character.

And wasn't really important!? She was Gwen's personal nemesis AND the one responsible for her learning magic to start with! That's very important.

kirby145 wrote:I wasn't really happy with how she turned against the team, but it was understandable.

No, it really wasn't understandable at all. Evil or Very Mad

6 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 14th August 2012, 6:08 am

Zero Degrees

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FutureFighter wrote:
Exactly. Charmcaster was awesome in OS and her first AF episode (not so much the second, but that was an alternate-universe Charmy so it's excusable). UA destroyed her character and ruined her further development, even when it set it up so well with "Where The Magic Happens". It's not that she "barely developed", it's that her development was screwed over; she took a huge step forward and then 600,000 steps back.
You're absolutely right! That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know why I wrote "barely developed" but I guess I just thought it was done lazily.
FutureFighter wrote:
The number-one item on my Omniverse wish-list is that Charmcaster's story is continued, corrected, and restored, giving her dignity back.
Not a big fan of Charmcaster but I also want her to get her dignity back.

7 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 14th August 2012, 9:37 am

First-Psykon

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Zero Degrees wrote:
FutureFighter wrote:
Exactly. Charmcaster was awesome in OS and her first AF episode (not so much the second, but that was an alternate-universe Charmy so it's excusable). UA destroyed her character and ruined her further development, even when it set it up so well with "Where The Magic Happens". It's not that she "barely developed", it's that her development was screwed over; she took a huge step forward and then 600,000 steps back.
You're absolutely right! That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know why I wrote "barely developed" but I guess I just thought it was done lazily.
FutureFighter wrote:
The number-one item on my Omniverse wish-list is that Charmcaster's story is continued, corrected, and restored, giving her dignity back.
Not a big fan of Charmcaster but I also want her to get her dignity back.
I definitely hope she appears as a good character in OV, not messed up (at least in design). It feels like a plot hole if they don't.


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8 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 14th August 2012, 10:10 am

Zero Degrees

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First-Psykon wrote:I definitely hope she appears as a good character in OV, not messed up (at least in design). It feels like a plot hole if they don't.
I hope for the same but I don't see how it would be a plot hole.

9 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 14th August 2012, 3:35 pm

FutureFighter


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Zero Degrees wrote:
First-Psykon wrote:I definitely hope she appears as a good character in OV, not messed up (at least in design). It feels like a plot hole if they don't.
I hope for the same but I don't see how it would be a plot hole.

Yeah, she technically already had a messed up design when she appeared in AF (pointy ears, wtf?), but that's not a plot hole.

A plot hole would be how and why she changed her ways between "Where the Magic Happens" and "Enemy of My Frenemy", which was never explained.

10 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 12:43 am

FutureFighter


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Say, it just occured to me...

Does anyone else think Charmcaster is the "Stephanie Brown" of Ben 10?

Y'know, a well-liked character among fans who isn't liked by the writers so they put her through terrible abuse and then just drop her completely after a reboot?

Given the pain she suffered in UA, and now the complete absence of her presence for at least 40 episodes in OV, and the uncertainty that even if she returns her storyline will be continued, concluded, and rectified....I would say there's an uncanny resemblence. Though at least Steph got to be Batgirl for about two years. Charmcaster's been so underutilized it's ridiculous. I guess the mindset is that she can't sell toys, so screw any possibilities with using her in episodes! Evil or Very Mad

A shame, since there's more potential in stories with Charmcaster than there are with Kevin at this point (How many "Boo-hoo, I'm mutated!" stories do we need!?)

11 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 5:21 am

kirby145


FutureFighter wrote:Say, it just occured to me...

Does anyone else think Charmcaster is the "Stephanie Brown" of Ben 10?

Y'know, a well-liked character among fans who isn't liked by the writers so they put her through terrible abuse and then just drop her completely after a reboot?

Given the pain she suffered in UA, and now the complete absence of her presence for at least 40 episodes in OV, and the uncertainty that even if she returns her storyline will be continued, concluded, and rectified....I would say there's an uncanny resemblence. Though at least Steph got to be Batgirl for about two years. Charmcaster's been so underutilized it's ridiculous. I guess the mindset is that she can't sell toys, so screw any possibilities with using her in episodes! Evil or Very Mad

A shame, since there's more potential in stories with Charmcaster than there are with Kevin at this point (How many "Boo-hoo, I'm mutated!" stories do we need!?)
Where did you get this info. From the first episode I thought they were already moving away from magic users. But I was so hoping for CC to return. Favorite character.

Magic users generally have a balance in the other shows (take DC as a prime example). I personally found it to be unbalanced, but it obviously makes it more interesting when someone is put in the story that is not able to be easily dealt with. Looking at DC, Justice League and Young Justice basically put magic users in a different tier. That is, a magic type hero can be countered by another magic type hero. If you don't have a magic type on the team, then you have to have a significant number of heroes to counter. The original YJ team only had 1 magic type, Aqualad, and since he was very weak the team was completely ineffective when a magic hero came up.

So now we come to OV, and Ben gets to go solo. Already you are running into serious problems if the common magic villains show up. (If the show is correctly balanced). Gwen is attributed as the strongest team member a few times in AF, though weak in the original. When CC comes up, Gwen is needed to counter (balanced appropriately). We have CC and Hex, but I would seriously hope there are other magic types existing since it is a very relevant plot point with Gwen in AF.

CC is the best character in terms of story right now. Entire life with no morals, kills a ton of people and works only to revive her dad, and then is told she's wrong. Her entire life up to that point was completely wrong. Then you have Hex, who doesn't seem to do much other than petty theft. CC shows up last in AF to do a little work with the team but then shuts them out. I can't accept that she has no plans and no purpose in the story.

Don't forget she killed Gwen multiple times (strongest team member, that's a lot to say). Someone who actually kills main characters should not be pushed off as a minor garbage character if they are still around.

By the way OV is great to me but a ton of the fans didn't react well to the art style. Don't care if you like it or not, the fans do not. If the show is cut short and this story doesn't end then AF is the last canon for me... McDuffie would have given CC some ending or story.

12 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 5:28 am

kirby145


kirby145 wrote:Don't forget she killed Gwen multiple times (strongest team member, that's a lot to say). Someone who actually kills main characters should not be pushed off as a minor garbage character if they are still around.
Compare this with Vilgax who gets completely destroyed about 10 times over the course of the series, and by the same exact method about 5 times. Don't have exact numbers but we're looking at about

Charmcaster
W-5 L-1
(killls gwen, assassinates leader and usurps mana realm (0 consequence), kills entire team, defeats lightguy etc... Lost trying to steal Omni in original series)
Vilgax
W-0 L-10
(Fails to steal omnitrix, beaten by crappy alien transformation about 5 times, other times just trips and dies by himself)

If I see Vilgax one more time hen we have this to ptier character I'm done. No offense, I don't like to see the guy who lost over and over. I like to see a challenging character who is already established/

13 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 3:58 pm

FutureFighter


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kirby145 wrote:Where did you get this info.

Derrick Wyatt confirmed that Charmcaster is nowhere in any of the first 40 episodes of Omniverse. 20 more episodes have been produced now, so she may be in one or some of them, but again, we have no idea if she's just going to be rebooted and her previous story ignored, and again, I think it's stupid that the writers wait so long to use her and use her so little in general.

Gwen is attributed as the strongest team member a few times in AF, though weak in the original.

First off, no, she wasn't weak in the original.

Secondly, I only recall the end of UA claiming Gwen to be the strongest, and I don't buy it, frankly. She'd be the strongest if she went full Anodite and stayed that way, but as it stands, she's just a human who uses pink glass.

Entire life with no morals, kills a ton of people and works only to revive her dad, and then is told she's wrong. Her entire life up to that point was completely wrong.

Right, and that deserves follow-up. She deserves to work for redemption; at this point she has much more in-story reason to do so than Kevin ever did (his reasons for redemption came retroactively; back when it happened, he did it just because the plot of AF required him to.)

Don't forget she killed Gwen multiple times (strongest team member, that's a lot to say). Someone who actually kills main characters should not be pushed off as a minor garbage character if they are still around.

Again, I don't think Gwen is the strongest. And Charm only killed her twice; once in an alternate timeline where she got lucky, and the other because she was a practical goddess over magic, so killing someone made of it really wasn't much of a challenge.

McDuffie would have given CC some ending or story.

Yeah, I really don't want to sound like I'm disrespecting Dwayne's memory here, but...he should have done that when he had the chance. He started CC's story in that final season of UA, so he ought to have made sure it finished by the end. And he had a PERFECT chance to do so, since Diagon was involved in her story and she could have easily come in and redeemed herself fighting Diagon in the finale. But no, she didn't. Dwayne obviously figured that it'd be best to leave CC's story hanging for the next series, which he thought he'd be around for. For the sake of cheap, dragged-out drama and potential future ratings, Dwayne threw CC, who presumably was a character he liked, under the bus, left sad, alone, and unresolved.

Again, no respect meant to Dwayne, but that was just wrong, IMHO.

Charmcaster
W-5 L-1
(killls gwen, assassinates leader and usurps mana realm (0 consequence), kills entire team, defeats lightguy etc... Lost trying to steal Omni in original series)

Er, she had more losses than that. Failed to gain the power of Bezel, failed to take Gwen's powers, failed in her teamups with the Forever King and Zombozo, failed in ressurecting her father. Charmcaster has about an equal Win-Lose ratio.

No offense, I don't like to see the guy who lost over and over.

It'd be a flat-out injustice to see Vilgax before Charmcaster in OV, since we already finished a big Vilgax-related arc (the Diagon arc), while Charmcaster (who deserved a place in the finale of that arc more than Vilgax already) had an arc still left unended. Charmcaster takes priority over Vilgax, period.

The writers need to finish the damn stories they start BEFORE making new ones.

14 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 6:35 pm

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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It's not an injustice at all.

Vilgax is and has always been a major villain. He's been the central villain in three of Ben 10's 7 arcs.
Charmcaster is a very very very minor villain. she appeared in what, 4 episodes in all of UAF? Who even cares about her, honestly. She's Gwen's to deal with, and Gwen is not a central player in OV. There's no reason for her to be in the show thus far.

Anyway, we already know Vilgax will not be a major villain in either the first or third arcs. He might show up in the second, fourth, fifth or sixth, but that's all speculation at this point. But it shouldn't be a surprise if a major recurring villain returned before a minor one.

15 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 6:59 pm

FutureFighter


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:It's not an injustice at all.

Yes, yes it is. We have current, in-story REASON to see Charmcaster again. We don't for Vilgax, who was wrapped up already.

That's not to say he can't come back later; it's just that unfinished stories should finish FIRST before new ones begin.

Vilgax is and has always been a major villain. He's been the central villain in three of Ben 10's 7 arcs.

Right, which is why he's had more than enough exposure. Let other characters have spotlight.

Charmcaster is a very very very minor villain. she appeared in what, 4 episodes in all of UAF?

1. She's in no way "very very very minor" like you say, since she's the effing REASON Gwen ever learned magic to begin with, and the first major female villain on the show (Rojo, a pawn of Vilgax, and Frightwig, a girl in a group with two guys, don't count.) Not to mention she's one of the few villains, or even characters in general, who's had ANY character development in this franchise, as haphazardly written as it may be. You're selling her way short.

2. She appeared in 6 episodes in UAF, and 5 in the original series (why are you forgetting about that?)

Who even cares about her, honestly.

...Many, MANY fans do, you jerkwad. ALOT of people would rather see more of her than Vilgax for the umpteenth time, since she's actually interesting.

She's Gwen's to deal with, and Gwen is not a central player in OV. There's no reason for her to be in the show thus far.

Except she shouldn't be Gwen's to deal with, since if her story is to be continued, she shouldn't be a villain anymore. She should be, you know, a character on her own. And she had a character arc going that wasn't finished, so that's reason enough for her to be in the show. It's disrespectful to fans to just drop storylines without finishing them and expect fans to forget. Again, if Dwayne had just concluded her arc in UA, this wouldn't be an issue. But he didn't conclude it, and I fail to see what's wrong with wanting the writers of OV to since it's something alot of people who were invested in it want to see.

16 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 8:47 pm

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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FutureFighter wrote:

Yes, yes it is. We have current, in-story REASON to see Charmcaster again. We don't for Vilgax, who was wrapped up already.

That's not to say he can't come back later; it's just that unfinished stories should finish FIRST before new ones begin.

Vilgax is like the freaking Joker. He's the protagonist's archenemy. He will always return. Deal with it.

Charmcaster's arc was resolved as well as possible in UA. Everything she worked on turned out to be for nothing. All her dreams were crushed. Where will she go next? Who knows? It's an open question, but not a pressing one. It's not an unfinished story--her UAF arc ended, now she needs another one. But she isn't aqn important character and probably never will be.



Right, which is why he's had more than enough exposure. Let other characters have spotlight.

Right. Which is why other villains are being focused on for the first 40 episodes of Omniverse. Remember the Megawhatts? They're back now. Also other, more interesting characters.



1. She's in no way "very very very minor" like you say, since she's the effing REASON Gwen ever learned magic to begin with, and the first major female villain on the show (Rojo, a pawn of Vilgax, and Frightwig, a girl in a group with two guys, don't count.) Not to mention she's one of the few villains, or even characters in general, who's had ANY character development in this franchise, as haphazardly written as it may be. You're selling her way short.

2. She appeared in 6 episodes in UAF, and 5 in the original series (why are you forgetting about that?)

1. No, Hex is the reason. Charmcaster was Hex's sidekick. Charmcaster would never have met them if not for Hex. Discounting Rojo and Frightwig is stupid. Besides her portrayals in UAF were boring.

2. Because her fans are hella annoying and I don't care.

...Many, MANY fans do, you jerkwad. ALOT of people would rather see more of her than Vilgax for the umpteenth time, since she's actually interesting.

Many fans also like Vilgax, though. You're right that most people would rather watch UAF Charmcaster than UAF Vilgax--I would, too. But that's because his many portrayals in UAF were a very bad joke. She's still pretty boring.



Except she shouldn't be Gwen's to deal with, since if her story is to be continued, she shouldn't be a villain anymore. She should be, you know, a character on her own. And she had a character arc going that wasn't finished, so that's reason enough for her to be in the show. It's disrespectful to fans to just drop storylines without finishing them and expect fans to forget. Again, if Dwayne had just concluded her arc in UA, this wouldn't be an issue. But he didn't conclude it, and I fail to see what's wrong with wanting the writers of OV to since it's something alot of people who were invested in it want to see.

People were seriously that into a character who appeared in literally three out of fifty-two episodes? It's not so much disrespectful to fans as it is crappy writing. And there's nothing wrog with the OV writers not wanting to touch the ugly aborted fetus that her story became in UA. The only way for her story to not be any more messed up wpuld be for her to appear only in 11-year old Ben's stories. (Which would be okay)

But maybe I'm just biased against her because I loved her OS design and hated what they did to her in UAF? I'unno.

17 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 9:42 pm

FutureFighter


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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:Charmcaster's arc was resolved as well as possible in UA. Everything she worked on turned out to be for nothing. All her dreams were crushed. Where will she go next? Who knows? It's an open question, but not a pressing one. It's not an unfinished story--her UAF arc ended, now she needs another one. But she isn't an important character and probably never will be.

1. If it hadn't been for "Couple's Retreat", I would have agreed that it wasn't unresolved. But that it turned up and continued the crap from "Enemy of My Frenemy", which just makes viewers more interested in seeing how her story goes, and frusturated when nothing comes out of it by season's end.

2. Again with "she's not an important character". How do YOU define important? Charmcaster is Gwen's arch nemesis, the reason Gwen knows magic, the first important female villain in the franchise, and a character arc that, frankly, is more interesting than that of say, Kevin. And she's important to alot of fans as well. Brushing her off so callously is a dick move on both your part and the writers'. She has more to offer that what you seem to think.

Right. Which is why other villains are being focused on for the first 40 episodes of Omniverse.

And that's good. I never said I didn't want that. I just don't want Vilgax so soon in OV, Charmcaster or no Charmcaster.

No, Hex is the reason. Charmcaster was Hex's sidekick. Charmcaster would never have met them if not for Hex. Discounting Rojo and Frightwig is stupid. Besides her portrayals in UAF were boring.

Gwen only learned magic on her own by stealing Charmcaster's spellbook. In an episode where Charmcaster was NOT being Hex's "sidekick" (she only was that in her first appearance, where she ended up betraying him). And Charmcaster wouldn't have met them if not for Hex? Charmcaster was the one who broke Hex out of jail to start with; she's STILL the one who instigated things. She's consistently more of a focus than Hex in all three shows.

And her portrayals in UAF, while filled with frustuarting writing particularly in her final two showings, were certainly not boring.

Because her fans are hella annoying and I don't care.

Ah, so you're a typical fan-hater, then. That's WAY more "hella annoying" than a fan of a character could be.

You're right that most people would rather watch UAF Charmcaster than UAF Vilgax--I would, too. But that's because his many portrayals in UAF were a very bad joke. She's still pretty boring.

What exactly about her do you find boring? She's one of the few characters who even HAS a character arc (many others don't, and some who DID, like Kevin, don't anymore), so I guess you just don't like those and want to see mindless alien action?

People were seriously that into a character who appeared in literally three out of fifty-two episodes?

Who, Charmcaster? Again, get better math skills, as she appeared in five out fifty-two episodes in both the origianl show AND Ultimate Alien. And the amount of episodes a character appears in has NOTHING to do with their popularity. Julie has appeared in many, many episodes, and she's hated.)

And there's nothing wrog with the OV writers not wanting to touch the ugly aborted fetus that her story became in UA. The only way for her story to not be any more messed up wpuld be for her to appear only in 11-year old Ben's stories. (Which would be okay)

NOW we agree on something! Razz Again, I think Charmcaster is interesting. I think her character arc is interesting. But I think it was handled atrociously.

And that's why I think they SHOULD touch the ugly aborted fetus that was her story, because they have the ability to fix it. A certain online reviewer once said of Spider-Man's "One More Day" that they do NOT want it ignored or retconned so that Peter Parker and Mary Jane are together again: they want all the problems it caused to be addressed, dealt with, and developed. In other words, actually fixed. That's how I feel about CC's UA storyline.

The writers need to make Charmcaster's personality and actions consistent, move her character arc forward instead of all over the place, and just plain be logical about it (hence my statement that she should not be a villain. Her own beloved father makes her realize she was wrong and...she stays a villain? Nope, NOT logical storytelling or character progression. At all. If that happens in OV, I will officially give up on the show and writers.)

Bottom line: don't ignore the elephant in the room. Get it to leave.

But maybe I'm just biased against her because I loved her OS design and hated what they did to her in UAF? I'unno.

I loved her OS design better too, but the design has nothing to do with the character, which I still think is interesting despite the crappy way her arc has been written, and why I wish she would be put in OV, since her UAF portrayal really has potential to be better than how UAF actually used her.

18 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 26th September 2012, 10:29 pm

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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FutureFighter wrote:
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:Charmcaster's arc was resolved as well as possible in UA. Everything she worked on turned out to be for nothing. All her dreams were crushed. Where will she go next? Who knows? It's an open question, but not a pressing one. It's not an unfinished story--her UAF arc ended, now she needs another one. But she isn't an important character and probably never will be.

1. If it hadn't been for "Couple's Retreat", I would have agreed that it wasn't unresolved. But that it turned up and continued the crap from "Enemy of My Frenemy", which just makes viewers more interested in seeing how her story goes, and frusturated when nothing comes out of it by season's end.

2. Again with "she's not an important character". How do YOU define important? Charmcaster is Gwen's arch nemesis, the reason Gwen knows magic, the first important female villain in the franchise, and a character arc that, frankly, is more interesting than that of say, Kevin. And she's important to alot of fans as well. Brushing her off so callously is a dick move on both your part and the writers'. She has more to offer that what you seem to think.

I define important as important.
She isn't important.

That's not a bad thing. I like a lot of unimportant characters. Pakmar and Albedo are like my favorite characters but they don't matter at all.

Right. Which is why other villains are being focused on for the first 40 episodes of Omniverse.

And that's good. I never said I didn't want that. I just don't want Vilgax so soon in OV, Charmcaster or no Charmcaster.


Well like I said, he's not in at least 20 episodes of Omniverse. (half) what qualifies as soon?

No, Hex is the reason. Charmcaster was Hex's sidekick. Charmcaster would never have met them if not for Hex. Discounting Rojo and Frightwig is stupid. Besides her portrayals in UAF were boring.

Gwen only learned magic on her own by stealing Charmcaster's spellbook. In an episode where Charmcaster was NOT being Hex's "sidekick" (she only was that in her first appearance, where she ended up betraying him). And Charmcaster wouldn't have met them if not for Hex? Charmcaster was the one who broke Hex out of jail to start with; she's STILL the one who instigated things. She's consistently more of a focus than Hex in all three shows.

And her portrayals in UAF, while filled with frustuarting writing particularly in her final two showings, were certainly not boring.

We met CC because we met Hex. Yes she borke him out of jail, that is what evil sidekicks do. Yes she has gotten more focus, yes she caused Gwen to learn magic, no that doesn't mean she's important. That's like saying Albedo is an important character for creating the Ultimatrix, which he ain't.

Because her fans are hella annoying and I don't care.

Ah, so you're a typical fan-hater, then. That's WAY more "hella annoying" than a fan of a character could be.

That's a funny opinion.
Wrong, but funny.

You're right that most people would rather watch UAF Charmcaster than UAF Vilgax--I would, too. But that's because his many portrayals in UAF were a very bad joke. She's still pretty boring.

What exactly about her do you find boring? She's one of the few characters who even HAS a character arc (many others don't, and some who DID, like Kevin, don't anymore), so I guess you just don't like those and want to see mindless alien action?

She's boring because she looks boring and Ledgerdomain is okay and her face is boring. She was just angsty and bleeeh in UA. The most intereting thing she did in the whole show was sleep with Morningstar, and that's saying something. (Morningstar is cool, btw. He needs more appearencers) Her character arc is wishy washy and came utterly out of the blue.

People were seriously that into a character who appeared in literally three out of fifty-two episodes?

Who, Charmcaster? Again, get better math skills, as she appeared in five out fifty-two episodes in both the origianl show AND Ultimate Alien. And the amount of episodes a character appears in has NOTHING to do with their popularity. Julie has appeared in many, many episodes, and she's hated.)

Julie is hated by you guys, maybe. I like her. She doesn't appear nearly enough.

CC appeared in 4 episodes in UA, actually. I forgot about Hit 'Em Where They Live 'cause that episode suuuuuuucked.
Anyways yeah, appearance is unrelated to popularity, but it's weird that people are so into a character whose story was handled so poorly. She's an okay character with a boring story. What's there to be hyped about?

And there's nothing wrog with the OV writers not wanting to touch the ugly aborted fetus that her story became in UA. The only way for her story to not be any more messed up wpuld be for her to appear only in 11-year old Ben's stories. (Which would be okay)

NOW we agree on something! Razz Again, I think Charmcaster is interesting. I think her character arc is interesting. But I think it was handled atrociously.

And that's why I think they SHOULD touch the ugly aborted fetus that was her story, because they have the ability to fix it. A certain online reviewer once said of Spider-Man's "One More Day" that they do NOT want it ignored or retconned so that Peter Parker and Mary Jane are together again: they want all the problems it caused to be addressed, dealt with, and developed. In other words, actually fixed. That's how I feel about CC's UA storyline.

The writers need to make Charmcaster's personality and actions consistent, move her character arc forward instead of all over the place, and just plain be logical about it (hence my statement that she should not be a villain. Her own beloved father makes her realize she was wrong and...she stays a villain? Nope, NOT logical storytelling or character progression. At all. If that happens in OV, I will officially give up on the show and writers.)

Bottom line: don't ignore the elephant in the room. Get it to leave.

But the OV writers are not the UA writers, not necessarily. They didn't write themselves into a corner, some other tools did. If she goes back to being a villain, that'd be fine by me. Villanous breakdowns are great.

But maybe I'm just biased against her because I loved her OS design and hated what they did to her in UAF? I'unno.

I loved her OS design better too, but the design has nothing to do with the character, which I still think is interesting despite the crappy way her arc has been written, and why I wish she would be put in OV, since her UAF portrayal really has potential to be better than how UAF actually used her.

I'm an artist. Design has everything to do with a character.

19 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 2:20 am

kirby145


People defending Vilgax as a character? Holy shit.

You have a character who is flat out weaker than Ben. Weaker. Than. Ben.

Not once has he defeated Ben. Ben usually only faces Vilgax in 1v1 combat, so he doesn't even have to face the entire team.

Let me just point out his defeats in order from the wiki. Let's see how amazing this character is, shall we?

Original
1. [L] Tied in ship vs. ship, but dismembered.
2. [L] Bounty hunter 3 man team mission failure
3. [L] Rojo mission failure
4. [L] Omnitrix theft failure, Chimerian Hammer destroyed, Vilgax cryo frozen. Beaten by G,M,B.
5. [L] Team with Kevin, locked in null void.
6. [L] Airlock ejected, spacebound by Waybig (See bolded part again farther down for why this is a huge fail)

AF
Note: He now follows galactic war law (in other words, he's a completely helpless baby compared to other villains. Afraid of law enforcement. LOL)
7. [W] Not technically a win vs Ben since he's not around, but he conquers 10 worlds.
8. [L] Legally defeated by Diamondhead (Flat out Lol. Has nothing to do with the species strength given he destroyed their entire homeworld. He was outplayed.)
9. [L] Defeated by Ghostfreak (Needing Ben's help due to stupidity counts as a loss).
10. [W] Defeats Azmuth (Lol he beats a galvan. I'll give it to you even though thats pathetic).
11. [L] Obtains omni, asks for help, Ben takes it back by using it.
12. [L] Thrown into space by Waybig (2nd time by same method, yes it gets worse)
13. [L] Omni self destruct, Ship destroyed, Nuked. (Why is he not dead yet, sigh)

UA
14. [L] Stabbed by Ascalon despite fusion.

2/14 (1/7) Win/Loss, with several complete failures.

Putting this character back in is like putting some bank robber in vs Superman or Batman, like they are magically going to win this time? He's garbage.

He is effectively immortal in terms of the series, but that's not really a reason to keep him in the story. There are plenty of people in other series who have only immortality but they do a better job than this... Considering Vilgax also has a ton of resources, weapons, cybernetics, and natural species superpowers you wonder why he's this bad. See: Vandal Savage [DC].



Last edited by kirby145 on 27th September 2012, 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total

20 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 3:03 am

kirby145


Er, she had more losses than that. Failed to gain the power of Bezel, failed to take Gwen's powers, failed in her teamups with the Forever King and Zombozo, failed in ressurecting her father. Charmcaster has about an equal Win-Lose ratio.
Ok, let's be fair to CC as an an individual, gonna go through the wiki like my post with VG above.

1. [L] Disarmed by Gwen. (Note: Gwen already has "master magician" level abilities, after using magic for about 5 minutes. CC does not have this after a lifetime.)
2. [L] Fails to swap with Ben. (Another note: Had she simply accepted the swap with Gwen she would be better off. If Gwen's lineage was already established by the writers she probably would have sensed this on or before the swap. But the lineage was only introduced in AF).
3. [-] No contest at fountain of youth.
4. [L] Loss vs Gwen as negative 10.

AF
5. [L] succeeds in draining Gwen, Yet disarmed vs Gwen with one spell. Vortex moved with another. >_>
6. [W] Kills Gwen, enslaves Kevin. (Stated that without Kevin, Gwen lost the battle. So much for that 1v1 power?) (Yes this is alternate timeline but generally they can be accepted as a measure of power).

UA
7. [-] No contest in Hit E'm where they live (Honestly she doesn't give a damn about Ben at this point)
8. [W] Allies with the team in LedgerDomain, allows their escape (The rivalry and friendship with Gwen is one reason I love this character).
9. [W] Assassinates Adwaita.
10. [W] Usurps LD throne and enslaves population.
11. [W] Gains and sells 60,000 owned souls, including G,K,B. (Kills entire team, and is pretty strong, but to whom are they sold????)
12. [-] Learns forbidden resurrection spell. (This is an achievement at least)
13. [W] Owns the crap out of Darkstar and removes G,K,B from LD instantly.

6/9 or 2/3 W/L.

No, her Win/Loss is not perfect. But you should note a few things:

1. She improves vastly over time. She loses a lot early on, but actually learns from her mistakes and improves her strength. Compare this to Vilgax who learns nothing and continuously loses.
2. She is rivals/friends with Gwen. This is way cooler than most of the other villains who are just angry at life and blame everything on Ben. She also removes the repetitive Ben vs x relationship. Where basically Ben wins and that's the episode. If it was CC vs Ben now in a 1v1, she would win (see magic balance post).
3. As of right now she is probably the strongest character in the series, and this makes her decisions more important. If she is allied/neutral with Ben that's great. If she's an enemy, I'm not sure how you can balance that.

It'd be a flat-out injustice to see Vilgax before Charmcaster in OV, since we already finished a big Vilgax-related arc (the Diagon arc), while Charmcaster (who deserved a place in the finale of that arc more than Vilgax already) had an arc still left unended. Charmcaster takes priority over Vilgax, period.

The writers need to finish the damn stories they start BEFORE making new ones.
AGREED. bounce bounce bounce

21 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 4:55 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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kirby145 wrote:blah blah blah i think i'm smart

Vilgax was utterly terrible in UAF. We already covered that. His treatment in UAF was shit. That's all that needs to be said on the matter.

Also, everyone is weaker than Ben. Everyone loses.

22 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 8:54 am

Zero Degrees

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Lodestar's Advocate wrote:
kirby145 wrote:blah blah blah i think i'm smart

Vilgax was utterly terrible in UAF. We already covered that. His treatment in UAF was shit. That's all that needs to be said on the matter.

Also, everyone is weaker than Ben. Everyone loses.
Well, this may be a debate for another day but I think MANY of Ben's enemies are stronger than him. But of course, they have to lose. Laughing .

23 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 11:32 pm

FutureFighter


Human
Human
Lodestar's Advocate wrote:That's like saying Albedo is an important character for creating the Ultimatrix, which he ain't.

Aaaaand I'd say he is.

You seem to define "important" by a VERY strict definition, as in, just a part of the main cast. By that token, I guess Kevin was an unimportant character in the original series, since he only had 4 appearances. Sorry, I just don't agree here.


That's a funny opinion.
Wrong, but funny.

Nope, it's the truth. No matter how annoying any fans of anything fictional may be, people who hate on nonfictional things are more aggrivating.

She's boring because she looks boring and Ledgerdomain is okay and her face is boring.

Superficial much?

I get it, you liked CC in the original show based on design and don't like her in UAF because of design. Let me ask you this, though: if the writers continued her character arc from UAF in OV, but gave her a design you liked, would you like it THEN?

She was just angsty and bleeeh in UA.


To be fair, so was Gwen in UA, and CC had to serve as Gwen's counterpart down to that detail.

Morningstar is cool, btw.

Not in UA he wasn't.

Her character arc is wishy washy and came utterly out of the blue.

Yes, but are arcs like Kevin's are any better?

That she has an arc at all is something, since most characters in this franchise don't, let alone villains (the aforementioned Morningstar, for example.)

Julie is hated by you guys, maybe. I like her. She doesn't appear nearly enough.

I don't mind her, I was just saying many other people do hate her.

And she doesn't appear enough? Really?

it's weird that people are so into a character whose story was handled so poorly. She's an okay character with a boring story. What's there to be hyped about?

I was into it because it wasn't boring. And it wasn't boring because it was so badly handled, and that ticked me off and kept my attention. I was into it because I wanted to it to improve, and it still isn't to late for it to do that. And many people like myself think she's above just "okay", which is why her getting such a crappy story is even more of an issue that we'd like to see the writers TRY to address, rather than tapdance around it.

THAT is where the hype is; hype to see a good character with alot of untapped potential finally get an interesting story and live up to the potential.

But the OV writers are not the UA writers, not necessarily.


A good deal of them are, I think. The Story Editors certainly are.

If she goes back to being a villain, that'd be fine by me. Villanous breakdowns are great.

Really now? Even though a villainous breakdown would make no logical sense, seeing as she's HAD a breakdown already in "Enemy of My Frenemy" and "Couple's Retreat" shows it's made her NOT a villain anymore (questionable actions when duped by Morningstar don't count, as otherwise she's trying to live in peace). Her going back to being a villain was terrible writing in "Enemy of My Frenemy"; it'd be WORSE if it happened in OV. The only logical next step for her is a heroine or some sort of anti-heroine, since she knows that's what her father wants of her, not a life of evil.

I'm an artist. Design has everything to do with a character.

So every character in every picture-less book ever written don't matter?

24 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 27th September 2012, 11:50 pm

FutureFighter


Human
Human
kirby145 wrote:(Note: Gwen already has "master magician" level abilities, after using magic for about 5 minutes. CC does not have this after a lifetime.)

....HUH? CC clearly did get master magician level abilities in UA (she could use the staff now, remember?) What are you talking about?

[-] No contest at fountain of youth.

In the context of the original show, that was a win, as she's now fully free of Hex and in charge of him.

It was only in AF that it was suddenly decided that she lived with him again, even though she betrayed him before....

[L] Loss vs Gwen as negative 10.

THIS was a no contest, not a loss. She did NOT lose to Gwen in this fight, the fight was interrupted.

No contest in Hit E'm where they live (Honestly she doesn't give a damn about Ben at this point)

No, that one was a loss. A really, REALLY stupid one. That episode WAS bad. Evil or Very Mad

The rivalry and friendship with Gwen is one reason I love this character.

Well, to me it's one of the wasted potential parts about the character. The writers just don't handle it well in UAF. Neutral

Kills entire team, and is pretty strong, but to whom are they sold????

Diagon, of course. Which again makes me shake my head and ask why Dwayne and co. didn't include CC in the friggin' finale?

If she is allied/neutral with Ben that's great. If she's an enemy, I'm not sure how you can balance that.

Again a reason that her going back to being a villain would make no senseif it happened in OV. As long as she's in Ledgerdomain, she is all but invincible. To be a villain again, they'd have to take her out of there. Since nobody can force her out since she's, y'know, all-powerful, then the only way that could happen is if she left by her own free will. But why the hell would she do that if that means sacrificing being a goddess!? So yeah, she has to be ally or netural, otherwise it's crap writing.

25 Re: Future of Charmcaster Arc on 28th September 2012, 4:04 am

Tsuchimikado Motoharu

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Magister
Magister
Aaaaand I'd say he is.

You seem to define "important" by a VERY strict definition, as in, just a part of the main cast. By that token, I guess Kevin was an unimportant character in the original series, since he only had 4 appearances. Sorry, I just don't agree here.

No, I define important as characters who matter. Kevin was mostly important in the OS because he was Ben's archenemy and dark counterpart. And Ben was the protagonist, so that meant something. Charmcaster was more important in the OS, but she was still only the archenemy of supporting, if major, character. She was very minor in UAF.

Nope, it's the truth. No matter how annoying any fans of anything fictional may be, people who hate on nonfictional things are more aggrivating.

That's a funny opinion, but again, wrong. Charmcaster fans in particular act so entitled and bleeeeeeh.

Superficial much?

Sure.
I'm allowed to be as superficial as I want; she isn't a real person. In the absence of any other redeeming character qualities, I look to design. She doesn't have much to offer in either department.

That said, please don't misunderstand. I don't hate CC, not particularly, and I certainly don't think she exclusively looks boring in UAF. The two series sported a really ugly style. The only two human characters who were attractive at all in UAF were Julie and Mike.

I get it, you liked CC in the original show based on design and don't like her in UAF because of design. Let me ask you this, though: if the writers continued her character arc from UAF in OV, but gave her a design you liked, would you like it THEN?

That's an accurate, if narrow, way to view it. I didn't hate her story arc in UAF. It was bad, yes, but not particularly worse than most others. The difference is people are particularly fixated on CC for some reason? I'd be happy with CC getting any kind of redesign and focus in OV--I'd really be. But it wouldn't change that her portrayals and appearance in UAF were boring as hell.


To be fair, so was Gwen in UA, and CC had to serve as Gwen's counterpart down to that detail.

On that note: I didn't much like how Gwen was handled either.


Not in UA he wasn't.
Yeah he was.


Yes, but are arcs like Kevin's are any better?
Is that a trick question?

That she has an arc at all is something, since most characters in this franchise don't, let alone villains (the aforementioned Morningstar, for example.)

A character need not have an arc to be interesting. Villains can even have story arcs without turning good, you know.

I don't mind her, I was just saying many other people do hate her.

And she doesn't appear enough? Really?

Correction: She doesn't appear as a badass enough. She has a lot of untapped potential. She was cool in AF, but her portrayals in UA were (you guessed it!) terrible.


I was into it because it wasn't boring. And it wasn't boring because it was so badly handled, and that ticked me off and kept my attention. I was into it because I wanted to it to improve, and it still isn't to late for it to do that. And many people like myself think she's above just "okay", which is why her getting such a crappy story is even more of an issue that we'd like to see the writers TRY to address, rather than tapdance around it.

THAT is where the hype is; hype to see a good character with alot of untapped potential finally get an interesting story and live up to the potential.


So the rationale is: This is bad and I want it to be better!!!!
Okay.
I guess I can respect that?

A good deal of them are, I think. The Story Editors certainly are.
I know a lot of them are, hence the "not necessarily." Not everyone carried over.


Really now? Even though a villainous breakdown would make no logical sense, seeing as she's HAD a breakdown already in "Enemy of My Frenemy" and "Couple's Retreat" shows it's made her NOT a villain anymore (questionable actions when duped by Morningstar don't count, as otherwise she's trying to live in peace). Her going back to being a villain was terrible writing in "Enemy of My Frenemy"; it'd be WORSE if it happened in OV. The only logical next step for her is a heroine or some sort of anti-heroine, since she knows that's what her father wants of her, not a life of evil.

She could go shitbonkers, for starters. Maybe she can't cope with things. Maybe she tries to rationalize her actions. She knows what her father wants, namely to not kill everyone, but so what? That could be retconned away easily. It's not as if her wanting to bring her father back wasn't a huge load of bullshit as a motive.


So every character in every picture-less book ever written don't matter?

That's a dumb comparison because books are not cartoons and cartoons are not books.
As someone who is both a writer and an artist, I find such claims Stupid.

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